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In an exclusive interview with the BBC, Brazil’s President Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva stated that he maintains “no relationship” with former US President Donald Trump.
While Lula has frequently voiced criticisms of Trump, this declaration marks the clearest indication to date that he believes communication between himself and his US counterpart is effectively severed.
Despite the US enjoying a trade surplus with Brazil, Donald Trump imposed tariffs of 50% on Brazilian goods in July, citing the ongoing trial of Brazil’s former right-wing President Jair Bolsonaro on coup charges as a catalyst.
Lula characterized these tariffs as “eminently political,” asserting that US consumers would ultimately bear the burden through elevated prices for Brazilian commodities.
The Trump administration’s tariffs have adversely affected Brazilian exports to the US, including products like coffee and beef, which Lula anticipates will become more expensive: “The American people will pay for the mistakes President Trump is incurring in his relationship with Brazil.”
Notably, the two leaders have never engaged in direct communication. When pressed on the absence of attempts to initiate contact or cultivate a relationship, President Lula explained, “I never tried that call because he never wanted to have a conversation.”
Trump has previously suggested that Lula is welcome to “call him anytime.” However, Lula maintains that members of the Trump Administration “do not want to talk”.
He conveyed to the BBC that he learned of the US tariffs through Brazilian news outlets.
Referring to Trump, he commented that the US president “didn’t communicate in a civilised manner. He just published them [the tariffs] on his portal – on social media.”
When prompted to define his relationship with his US counterpart, he simply stated: “There’s no relationship.”
Lula positioned his strained relations with the US leader as an exception, highlighting his established relationships with former US presidents, UK prime ministers, the EU, China, Ukraine, Venezuela, and “all the countries in the world”.
The Brazilian president’s attendance at the World War Two anniversary celebrations in Russia this year underscores his continued ties with President Putin. When questioned about the comparative nature of his relationships with Trump and Putin, he defended his ties to the latter, citing their shared tenures as presidents “in previous times”.
“I don’t have a relationship with Trump because when Trump was elected the first time, I wasn’t president. His relationship is with Bolsonaro, not Brazil,” Lula clarified.
He also indicated that he would “greet him because I am a civilised citizen” should he encounter Trump at the upcoming United Nations General Assembly. However, he added that while Trump may be “president of the United States, [but] he’s not emperor of the world!”.
In response to a request for comment on Lula’s criticisms of Trump, a White House spokesperson directed the BBC to the US president’s prior public statements concerning Brazil.
Lula also addressed the situation of his predecessor, Jair Bolsonaro, who was recently convicted.
A 4-1 majority of justices on Brazil’s Supreme Court found the ex-president guilty of plotting a coup after losing the election to Lula and sentenced him to 27 years in prison.
Lula told the BBC that Bolsonaro and his co-conspirators had “hurt the country, attempted a coup, and plotted my death”.
Referring to the appeals Bolsonaro’s lawyers said they would lodge, Lula said that he hoped that Bolsonaro would continue “to present his defence” but that “for now he is guilty”.
He also criticised Trump for “inventing untruths” by claiming Bolsonaro was being persecuted and denouncing what the US leader said was a lack of democracy in Brazil.
Lula also told the BBC that if the 6 January 2021 Capitol riot had happened in Brazil rather than in the US, Trump would have been put on trial.
In the wide-ranging BBC interview, he also advocated for reform of the United Nations.
He criticised the fact that five countries – the permanent members of the UN Security Council – have the power to veto decisions and argued that this tilted the balance in favour of those who won World War Two, excluding nations representing billions of people like Brazil, Germany, India, Japan, as well as African countries.
The result, he said, was that the UN didn’t “have the strength to solve conflicts” and the five permanent members made “unilateral” decisions about going to war.
He defended his continued alliances with Russia and China – two nations where unfair elections and human rights abuses have been documented – while calling for a more “democratic” UN.
Pressed on Brazil’s continuing purchases of Russian oil while Russia wages war in Ukraine, he said Brazil was one of the first countries to condemn Russia’s occupation of Ukraine and that “Brazil doesn’t finance Russia, we buy oil from Russia because we need to buy oil just like China, India, the UK or the US needs to buy oil”.
He said that if the UN was “functioning” then neither the Ukraine war nor the Gaza war – which he described as “not a war” but a “genocide” – would have happened.
The BBC also asked President Lula about November’s COP30 climate summit, when Brazil will host world leaders in the Amazon city of Belém.
Domestically, the Brazilian president has faced criticism over his support for exploratory drilling for oil near the mouth of the Amazon River.
Brazil’s state oil company Petrobas and other firms have bought blocks for exploration and are awaiting licenses.
His own environment minister, Marina Silva, has strongly opposed the plans and some conservation groups fear it could risk oil spills in waters close to the Amazon.
President Lula insisted Brazil was strictly following the law in its research and if there were any oil spills then “Brazil would be liable and responsible and take care of any problem”.
He added that he supported a world without fossil fuels but “this moment has not come yet”.
“I want to know of any country that is prepared to have an energy transition and capable of giving up fossil fuels,” he replied. But the issue has proven controversial with left-wing voters.
Lula, who is 79, said he had not yet decided if he would run for re-election in the 2026 presidential elections.
He said that his health and his party would determine that – as well as whether it was politically opportune and whether he stood a chance of winning.
Lula slipped in the polls recently, but received a boost after Trump imposed tariffs on Brazil.
He concluded by saying that his legacy included reducing hunger, lowering unemployment, and the incomes of the working classes growing.
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